Transcript: Episode 3 - Transitions (part 1)
Intro:
Sam:
We are so glad to have you here for another episode of all The All Things podcast. We are your hosts Alyssa and Samantha, also known as Aly and Sam. I am Sam. This podcast was created with the ADHD brain in mind. We have fun and engaging discussions on serious topics that affect you.
Aly:
Hey, it's Alyssa here, you're in luck and also in good company because both of us have ADHD. Not only do we have ADHD but we're also ADHD coaches. Sam & I are real-life friends who met in our ADHD Coach Training Course. We basically live, eat, breathe and sleep ADHD.
Sam:
And now for this episode of The All Things ADHD podcast
Aly: Hey guys, it’s Alyssa. Today we're going to be talking to you about transitions and or transitioning. According to thesaurus.com, transitions are “a shift, a change-over, a metamorphosis, a transformation or an evolution. And for the purpose of our episode today we're going to be focusing on the shift and change-over part. But also we're in a big transition right now with COVID-19 going on. And that would be more of a metamorphosis, a transformation or an evolution. What do you think, Sam?
1:35 - Sam: Yeah, my thought about this is that we're in the midst of transitioning from what I think of as the “old normal” into some sort of “new normal”... But right now, we're kind of all in this liminal space and a lot of things are uncertain. We're not going from one fixed point to another fixed point; we don't know what the new normal is really going to look like. Those of us with ADHD can really struggle with uncertainty, especially if it's long term uncertainty.
2:02 - Aly: Yeah I keep saying, I'm in limbo phase right now.
Sam: Yeah, I think a lot of us identify with that. We're good in a crisis, or we can be good in a crisis, but a kind of longer term crisis is, it's definitely harder for us and I think that's primarily because ADHD-ers have major issues due to time blindness and that isn't just the fact that we don't naturally feel the passage of time like neurotypical people do. It means that we don't innately feel an emotional connection with the future, even the near future. And we might have developed beliefs over time about how our emotional states in any given moment, determines our ability to undertake a task, finish a task and then shift to doing the next thing.
2:57 Aly: Transitioning
Sam: Exactly.
Aly: That shift. Okay, so we want to start off our discussion on transitions, by saying what each of our definition of transitions is. Sam, what's your definition of a transition?
Sam: So basically, I really identify with the shift or change-over, so transitioning from one task or activity to another task or activity. This concept used to be completely and totally foreign to me, except for the past few years - I had no clue what transitions were and much less did I understand why it's so necessary to make time and space to actually do them properly. I'd say that this is the primary reason why I’ve historically run late for almost everything, especially as I got older.
Aly: That's really interesting... 'cause people often attribute that to time blindness… Like the being late all the time. But for you it's probably the transition piece also.
Sam: Right, so, for me, the transition piece is really connected to time blindness. And also as I got older, the number and complexity of my responsibilities increased and so that I would say that the issues that time blindness caused were or became exponential at that point.
Aly: Right, right, and then because of the time blindness, you're kinda running from task to task, which affected transitions.
Sam: Yeah, absolutely, yeah. So I guess I would say that I've spent a lot of my adult life basically being forced to transition from one task or activity to another by urgency or another person or the structure I was contained within at that point like my employer. Rather than transitioning from one thing to another of my own volition, and with intention.
Aly: That’s such a good point.
5:00 Sam: Thanks, Alyssa. I'd say that primarily that was because I was operating through... Sorry, I was operating as though my emotional state was, kind of, the only determining factor, about whether I could do a task and whether I could switch to a different task.
Aly: Like that “feel like it” thing?
5:22 Sam: Yeah, exactly. Like “I have to feel like it to do it and if I don't feel like I literally can't do it.”
Aly: Right.
Sam: Which I think is something that comes up a lot in ADHD circles, but how can I make myself feel like it because, obviously, unless I feel like it, it’s just not going to happen.
Aly: It ain’t going to happen. is on a tote.
Sam: So, I… I just wanna point out that especially when we're not in control of our own transitioning process and it’s, sort of, we're being forced to transition through urgency or another person, then it can feel -
transitioning can feel like it takes a lot of energy, especially in those circumstances.
Aly: And it sounds stressful.
Sam: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's, for me, it was really part of the chronic stress lifestyle that I developed over time, and I just became so used to running on adrenaline and being motivated by urgency and believing that that was the only way that I could actually do things. And I think that I also had kind of positive associations with the last minute hyper-focus drive of anxiety that we get sometimes - that I thought that, “Oh, that will actually just result in me performing better than I otherwise would.”
Aly: Right.
6:54 Sam: If I had taken the proper time to actually transition, my body wouldn't have produced stress chemicals that I believed that I needed in order to actually activate or perform well, especially under pressure.
Aly: Yeah, and I... It's funny because I think I'm the opposite of that, I feel like I had so much adrenaline and cortisol and all those fun things. In my body, and I was kind of like, it felt like a real permanent state and it was like... And I say “it was”... Because I feel like I'm doing a lot better on this now, but it was really hard for me to focus to be honest and now, I really don't like that feeling at all. I really don't like that urgency feeling, because I find it harder to get stuff done in that feeling too. I think my self-talk around that is like “oh I don't have enough time, Oh my God, why didn't I start earlier?” And then, it's rather than using it: that feeling and that cortisol and that adrenaline and that urgency feeling for the better... I'm like, my self-talk at that moment is bringing me down and I just verbally processed that - I didn't even realize that.
Sam: I mean, it's really interesting 'cause actually I don't know that we're opposites in that particular regard, at least because it's sort of the strategy to run on adrenaline and urgency kind of works until it doesn't anymore.
Aly: right.
8:26 Sam: And that's the point where we can... Our chronic stress just becomes unmanageable. And the strategies that we used to use to activate don't work anymore, and we've built up all of these stories about ourselves because of those experiences where our strategies don't work anymore, that it's just... Yeah, it just keeps building and building.
Aly: Which is so funny that, because it forces us to transition the way that we have been doing it. Like, that whole transformation side of the transition definition.
9:06 Sam: That’s a really good point.
Aly: It's not working anymore, so we have to transform what we're doing.
Sam: Yeah, very good point, Alyssa, I love that. I wanna hear a little bit more about what transitioning looks like for you.
Aly: Before I jump in and explain what transitioning is to me, I just wanna explain that transitioning is a part of our executive function. So we actually brought executive function up in our last episode, and we didn't want to
just leave you hanging and tell you to go look it up. So what we did is we have a definition here and we got a definition online so that we could keep it super short and not take up too much of our time. So the definition is actually from Wikipedia, so “executive functions, collectively referred to as executive function and cognitive control, are a set of cognitive processes that are necessary for the cognitive control of behavior; selecting and successfully monitoring behaviors that facilitate the attainment of chosen goals. The link is gonna be in our resources online. Also to just give you
another little side of executive function. There's a psychiatrist named Thomas Brown, and he came up with the model defining different components of executive function. These different components are activation, focus, effort, memory, emotion and action. So it's my belief that transitioning would fall into the focus category since transitioning encompasses shifting attention to tasks. Does that make sense, Sam?
10:42 Sam: Yeah, thanks for sharing all of that, Alyssa. I have to say that I just think it's important for us to share the definition so that people know what we're talking about. We strive to not be the types of professionals who just throw out terms, without any explanation. And assuming people know what they mean, so yeah, I appreciate you saying all that.
Aly: I gotta say it's hard though sometimes because we talk about these things every day. So it is so normal for us and it's hard to remember sometimes that it's not a regular - it's not regular vocabulary for most people.
Sam: Yeah, I agree, yeah.
Aly: Okay, so I’ll keep going! So for me, transitioning is basically a limbo between tasks when we haven't fully transitioned - that's a hard word for me, apparently - transitioned out of one task and fully activating into another task. So I find it's really also really easy for me to get lost in this limbo phase. You know when you're walking through your house and you're like, “what was I doing? Oh, how did I end up here?!”
‘
11:52 Sam: I was going to ask you Alyssa, what do you mean by getting lost? But I guess you literally mean getting lost in your space...
Aly: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I feel like you have to really consciously switch between tasks. So, switching your focus between one task and then another task and actively deciding “I'm going to do this right now” and being fully present in that new task.
Sam: Yeah, and it sounds a lot like being intentional basically.
Aly: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think that the real key is that you have to stop thinking about the task that you were, the first task that you were doing.
Sam: Stop thinking? How do I stop thinking?
Aly: I know, it's really hard. And especially, like, if I could give you an example… you know when you're doing this really fun engaging project and then... “Oh wait, I have to stop this project, because I have to do a chore like the dishes.
Sam: Yeah, that’s not fun.
Aly: Yeah, not fun at all. But luckily the dishes don't take a lot of brain power. So you could actually still be thinking about that first fun engaging task. No problem. But sometimes that other task is not the dishes. And it's something that actually requires brain power - like maybe doing taxes.
So it won’t serve you to be thinking about your project while you're doing your taxes - it’s actually probably gonna take you a lot longer to do your taxes.
13:27 Sam: Hmm, okay, maybe that's where I'm going wrong.
Aly: So, it's like you have to stop thinking about the project, so you could do the taxes, and have your focus and intentionally be focused on your taxes.
Sam: Yeah, that makes sense and if I'm fully or at least mostly focused on doing my taxes when I'm doing my taxes, maybe I'll do them more quickly and it won't be so painful.
Aly: Yeah, just rip that band-aid off!
13:56 Sam: I wonder, has your definition of transitioning changed over time?
Aly: Oh my gosh, definitely. I used to think that transitioning was basically switching from one task to another, which it is, but there's so much more involved and we're actually going to talk about that after. But for me, transitioning has been, I've been paying attention to it, and I've noticed that my transitioning hiccup if you will, is that I don't fully clean up after myself when I finish a task. So example, I have me and Sam have a podcast that we're doing together, so naturally I have this journal and I have my pens out and I have notes and I have all of the stuff associated with recording this podcast, and it's all across my table, and we finished recording, and then I leave and all of my stuff is still across the table and I've jumped onto my next task. And usually what happens is I really have to pee, so I get up and I go pee and then I get distracted by something along the way...
Sam: And then it’s off to the races!
Aly: Exactly. and then before you know it, I have piles everywhere. So, for me, I really have to pay attention now to: “okay, I finished this task, but what is the full picture of me finishing this task? What does that involve?”
15:32 Sam: Yeah, yeah, I love that. I think making sure that we have clear definitions of what that means to us, rather than just sort of assuming that at some point it will become obvious that we've completed a task is so important and I think when we have ADHD, a hugely positive thing we can do for ourselves is just to develop greater knowledge about what transitions are and what they actually look like for you now, as an individual and what you would like them to look like and feel like. And I know, I know from personal experience that improving your relationship with transitions can be life-changing. Believe me, if I can do it, then all of you listening can definitely do it!
Aly: Yes, you can!
Sam: So we wanted to provide a few different examples of what it can look like if someone with ADHD has difficulty with transitions... 'cause there are a few different ways that we can struggle, and hopefully all of you listening will be able to identify some of your specific struggles in these examples, and then more easily be able to identify what you can do about them when we talk about that later.
Aly: Yeah, and just so you guys know, a lot of these or examples from our own lives. Me and Sam’s lives. So you guys aren't alone, if these speak to you. So, what example is not - because we don't know how long a task will actually take, we don't typically schedule enough time for ourselves to
finish the task. There's no wiggle room shall we say, to pick it up and be able to complete it at a particular time. Did that make sense? I'm feeling like that maybe didn't make so much sense.
Sam: It totally made sense to me. So if we don't know how long a task takes then we probably won't schedule our time to do it and if we're not even super aware that we don't know how long it will take us, we might not actually build in any wiggle room, so that if we don't complete it in the time we've scheduled it, that we can still work on it later that we still have time before a deadline, or something with that.
Aly: Yeah, exactly and also I think the key in there too, is sometimes there's a lot of steps involved in a task, and we don't see all the steps due to our executive function challenges. And so something like a 20-minute drive to the doctor. We will leave 20 minutes before we have to be in that appointment with our doctor.
Sam: ...And, by leave, I know, for me, leaving doesn't necessarily mean actually leaving my house and being in the car and driving away when I'm like, “oh I need to leave at this time, to get there on time.” Sometimes I would be actually not even halfway through a task I was trying to complete at the time that I thought I'm supposed to be leaving, and so then I would quickly try to finish the task or have to just drop it and a not ideal moment and then I'd be like, “oh I need to use the bathroom. And what am I supposed to bring for this doctor's appointment? And by the time I figure all of that out, it's another 5-10 minutes and then I haven't accounted for the time it takes to actually get in my car and get situated, and then I drive and I haven't necessarily taken into consideration that my drive might not go perfectly, as I plan it.
Aly: You mean there are lights and there is traffic?
Sam: Right, there’s lights and there’s is traffic. If you are me, you might miss your exit and have to renavigate. And then of course it can take a while to park once you get there, and then even more time to walk to the building, and then take the lift to whatever floor you need to go to. Basically you all are being walked through my challenge of getting to an appointment with my psychiatrist on time.
Aly: Yeah, I was hearing so much preparation that's needed for something as simple as a doctor's appointment. You have to think beforehand, okay, what time do I have to leave? What do I need? Do I have to pee? Do I have to eat? What time do I need to finish this task that I just started? You know that one, you went over in. So it's like pre-thinking. Okay, well, what time do I need to stop?
Sam: Pre-thinking... I love that I...
Aly: What do I have to stop this task, so that I can transition out of it?
Sam: And, yeah, I guess we kind of gone over this but I just wanna highlight that people with ADHD, one of the inattentive symptoms we can have is just basically, not really being aware that we have bodies and bodily functions that need to be attended to on a regular basis. So for me, I know, and I'm pushed for time or I haven't, allowed myself, enough time for a particular task, then I will basically try to cut corners in my transition time where I like don't use the bathroom if I need to, or I don't get a snack or don't get a glass of water or I don't just get up from my desk and walk around a little bit to sort of reset mentally before my next thing. I will just jump from one task or activity to another. And then in the meantime, my focus and ability to shift between tasks might be suffering because maybe I have to pee, or I am hungry, or I need water or my body is totally tired of sitting around for hours.
Aly: Yeah, and if you arrive at your psychiatrist appointment with a hungry belly, really needing to pee, just all of those things ...
21:47 Sam: All while I have driven there too, and probably missed my turn. They get harder for me to concentrate enough to drive.
Aly: Yeah and then you need to focus in that session and how can you focus when you... all of those mountains of things are tying up your brain space?
Sam: I try to be a lot more cognizant now, of attending to my body and trying to pay attention to the signals that it gives me.
22:13 Aly: Yeah, yeah, I have to say that Time Timer... they should pay me 'cause I talk about Time Timer all the time. Time Timer, it made the biggest difference for me because there’s this external thing telling me, “here Alyssa you're gonna have to pee when this timer goes off”. Or just ask yourself “what do you need to do?” because hey, guess what you have another thing coming up in 10 minutes. And think about those things.
22:48 Sam: Yeah, I think even for some of us, if we really struggle with it, I guess, again going back to a checklist even having it on the wall or something somewhere you can easily reference it. You know, if you really struggle with transitions know that when your timer goes off at this whatever interval, look at the checklist. Be like “do I feel like I need to do that or that or that or that?” “What do I... What basic stuff do I need to do now in order to successfully transition?”
23:20 Aly: Yeah, and basically, you're in that moment what you're really doing is you're externalizing your executive function; you're not relying on your brain to remember everything.
22.33 Sam: Yeah
23:34 Aly: Because sometimes it doesn't turn out super well...
23:37 Sam: I mean, for me, pretty much ever. Speaking of reminders: what I've found to be a useful way of thinking of them as intentional versus environmental reminders through transition. And thinking of an example of an environmental reminder that I relied on in the past is back when I worked in an office. Back in the day. Sometimes there would be a group of people who would leave the office at 4:00 PM, before we were technically supposed to leave, to go to the pub. This is back when I worked in the UK. I often would work really late and not go to the pub, but there were points where I wanted to leave the office at five so I could go to my dance class or whatever else I was doing that evening and I ran into trouble when I realized that I was kind of relying on other people leaving the office to signal to me “okay, it's time to go” because sometimes people wouldn't leave at five, they’d leave at four and then I could no longer rely on them leaving the office to signal to me “okay, it’s time to go…”
24:49 Aly: Yeah. So then, okay... how would you have set an intentional reminder in that situation?
24:57 Sam: Well, I basically what I would have done is along with deciding when I'm going to leave the office at the beginning of the day, I would - this is before I had ADHD so... before I had a ADHD… before I was diagnosed that is.
*Laughter*
25:16 Sam: Wow!
25:25 Aly: Okay, so everyone, we are currently having a laughing fit and we are going to try and push through this. So my question for you, Sam is: how do you set the intentional reminders to transition?
25:40 Sam: Well you basically do it at the beginning of the day when you've decided “okay, I'm gonna leave at five”. You would then intentionally set a reminder on your phone. I don’t know, at 4:55 to start getting ready to go or at 4:30, for how long it takes you to actually transition.
26:00 Aly: Right.
26:02 Sam: For me at that point, I think it would have taken only five minutes because I did not wanna be at the office, even though I was distracted a lot and worked really late because of that. But yeah, so set a reminder basically, once you’ve actually set the intention to do that thing at a particular time.
26:21 Aly: Sorry, can I just... it's making me think that so many people tell themselves... “I'm gonna remember, I'm gonna remember that I need to leave at 5:00 PM.”
26:32 Sam: Yeah, this is really important to me to go to this dance class or whatever. So, clearly I'm gonna remember... Yeah, that's the thing is accepting that we have ADHD brain wiring and that means that just because something is important to us, it does not mean that we will remember it.
26:53 Aly: Exactly. Yeah, and it's like that ability to catch yourself in those moments when you're like... “Oh, I'm gonna remember and then you're like…”
27:00 Sam: Yeah, it’s like “red alert!” “red alert!”. That’s the time where it's more urgent than ever to set that reminder when you're like... “I totally won’t need that reminder”.
27:13 Aly: Yeah, exactly, yeah, for sure.
27:16 Sam: So yeah, basically…did I already talk about the pub? I think I must have...
*Laughter*
27:26 Aly: Did you go to the pub today?
27:32 Sam: Is there a pub on my road? Where am I?
27:37 Aly: Yeah, you did. You talked about the pub.
27:41 Sam: A few times. Okay. And how I did not go to the pub.
27:45 Aly: You did not.
27:46 Sam: Yeah, so basically, the idea with an intentional reminder is that we have control over it, and if we are relying on our environment or something in our environment, someone in our environment to sort of signal to us, “Okay, it's time gonna do this thing.” We don't have control over that and if that actually happens, and when it actually happens.
28:05 Aly: Yepp.
28:07 Sam: So, yeah I guess the key is taking responsibility to actually remind yourself to do the thing.
28:15 Aly: When you just said, “take responsibility”, it kind of just put this ping of sadness inside me because I feel it's not that they don't wanna take responsibility, it's they don't know how to take responsibility. The act of “this is important to me and I want to leave by five”. Sometimes they think that's enough.
28:38 Sam: Right. Yeah, going back to the thing, oh, except that you have ADHD brain and what that means is, if something's important to you, that has no correlation whatsoever on whether you'll remember it, right?
28:53 Aly: Yeah, and sometimes what you're trying to do so that you can leave by 5 PM is not suitable for you and your brain. And if it's not working, try differently.
29:06 Sam: Yeah, I love that. Take a... Take a dance class at lunch time or something.
29:11 Aly: Yeah, yep, yep, instead of setting a reminder get someone to call you or maybe that actually kind of relying on other people but …
29:22 Sam: Depending on the context, that could work, but the key is actually setting it up yourself, and yeah, I think it takes practice to figure out what works best for you, in terms of how to take responsibility for something. It takes trial and error, practice experimenting whatever other other words you wanna use, “this is a process and it takes time to figure out how to do it.”
29:55 Aly: Yeah, and I've already brought Time Timer up once, but Time Timer for me was that responsibility. That's what I needed to help myself.
30:04 Sam: I'm sort of envisioning your life right now, Alyssa, in terms of the two halves of it or rather, two parts of it. And, that is, that there was a time before the Time Timer, and then there's the time after the Time Timer or after the Time Timer came into your life.
30:18 Aly: We could make a movie.
30:21 Sam: Yeah, you can make a movie! I'm picturing the cover of a romance novel right now with you and Time Timer. …wow! This has just become really absurd.
Aly: Yeah, my boyfriend's got some serious competition.
30:36 Sam: Wow, does he resent your Time Timer? Does he like it?
30:41 Aly: I don't know, I think he's indifferent. I think he knows how much it helps me.
30:44 Sam: Okay,
30:45 Aly: I'm not even kidding you. Sometimes we're having dinner. I'm like, “here comes the Time Timer here 'cause I'm gonna be on a call in twenty minutes.. And the Time Timer’s at the table.
*Laughter*
30:57 Sam: So, as long as the Time Timer is the third wheel, and not your boyfriend, sounds like it's all right.
31: 02: Aly: Yeah, no, that's really accurate. So it's easier to transition out of task when we want to do the next task.
31:09 Sam: As long as you remember what your next task is, right?
31:12 Aly: Yeah, but it's so true, you know, when we're really excited to jump on that phone call with our next person or the next person in our schedule or… Oooh, I get to watch this movie, so I'm gonna run through this task that I have to do now, so I get to watch the movie after.
31:34 Sam: Or, I'm gonna just keep working on, I don't know, the dishes because the next thing on my schedule is to work on my taxes and basically anything is better than that.
31:44 Aly: Yeah, yeah.
31:46 Sam: I'll just really drag my feet during the dishes.
31:49 Aly: And also just be aware if you're negotiating with yourself, pay attention to what you're saying to yourself. “Is it true? Are you negotiating?” And then on the flip side, there’s the hyper-focus that we have. Where we cannot take ourselves out of a task that we are super engaged in.
32:14 Sam: We feel like we can't take ourselves out of the task.
32:16 Aly: Yes, thank you, that's a really important comment.
32:22 Sam: Feelings are important, but feelings are not facts.
32:27 Aly: Hmmm, feelings are not facts.
32:33 Sam: In terms of self-talk that means being aware of the words we're actually using like, “Oh I can't stop doing this”, is a world apart from... “Oh, I don't feel like, I don't feel like stopping doing this”. Right?
32:47 Aly: Oh yeah.
32:50 Sam: Yeah, so being careful about how we word it means that we can kind of give something more or less power over us, than is actually true.
33:03 Aly: I'm intentionally going to take us on a little tangent. When I was first diagnosed with ADHD, one of the first things that I did was I wrote on my wall, on Qcards and this is one of my first posts on my Missleadingly ADHD account. I put ALWAYS and I crossed it out and there's a few other words that I'm blanking on, it is probably something along the lines of NEED, SHOULD, all those black and white words.
33:30 Sam: NEVER.
33:31 Aly: NEVER. Yeah, and I put them on my wall and I paid attention to how often I said them and I would catch myself and I said them a lot! And when I stopped saying them, it was like this weight was lifted off of me. No, 'cause I would say things like they always do that or I always do that. And it was, it was harmful, and it wasn't true.
33:54 Sam: But, we can repeat something that isn't true so many times that we start believing that it is actually true, right? And then, once we stop doing that, then we stop believing that it's true, eventually.
34:10 Aly: Okay, so I'm getting us back to this rabbit hole, that I'm taking this down yet again.
Sam: So yeah, I guess another thing that makes it difficult to transition for us properly is not having an accurate picture of what is involved in both finishing a task and what is involved in a transition itself.
Aly: Yeah, so what do you mean by having that definition? What does that look like for a task?
34:46 Sam: Really great question. And it's going to vary based on the task. I think that one of the things I still struggle with— but I used to really, really struggle with this — is putting basically a project on my to-do list, my task list. That was the kiss of death for that project because it felt so huge. I didn't know where to start, I didn't know what to do in the middle, and I didn't know what to do to finish it up. I would become so emotional about - or I would have these emotions associated with the thing written down on my task list, the project that I would kind of go into overwhelm and because it was like, “Oh, I've gotta do that project now, where do I start?” And when I feel the pressure of making that decision in the moment of where to start, then I can’t even think of where to start. And so basically a way to address that is to break down the project into actual actionable steps that you can take to do the project but do it do that sort of action step breakdown at a separate time, than when you're when you've actually scheduled yourself to work on the project, so you don't have to make the decision in the moment.
36:05 Aly: Yeah, yeah, and that's crucial. Not having to make that decision in the moment. When you said “Kiss of Death” I literally pictured a Dementor beside us.
Sam: Totally.
Aly: Sucking all the- making the room really cold and sucking out all the happiness.
Sam: Yeah, that's a... It’s kind of what it can feel like... And I mean, I just think about all the years I spent un- diagnosed and obviously untreated for my ADHD and then just fighting. Fighting something all the time that I was like “I don't know what this is or why it's here”. But so in terms of not having a clear definition of what it looks like to finish a task because we can often find making those decisions and breaking things down in the moment, so difficult… We might procrastinate then on actually starting the project until the last minute when we've got that urgency energy driving us at that point. But then at that point we no longer and necessarily feel like we have the luxury of any additional time to then make a proper transition.
37:19 Aly: Yeah, and I think that, to add to that too... We're making this task or project so much bigger than it actually is. Generally, we are. like, “oh I have to do laundry” “oh my gosh, I have to…” But really, it’ll take…
Sam: It’s awful and boring and ugh, I have to do it anyway, right.
Aly: Yeah.
Sam: But I think some people even 'cause I know laundry is a big thing for people, some people with ADHD it’s like “oh, I’ve gotta do laundry, but laundry requires several different steps, so really you don't have to do the laundry. Right now, all that needs to be done is for you to pick up your laundry hamper... Assuming all the clothes are in it, but if that's not the case then you just put your clothes in the laundry hamper. First step.
Aly: I love that.
38:00 Sam: And then carry the laundry hamper to where the washing machine is, empty it into the washing machine. Assuming you emptied out your pockets already. So yeah, it's not just like “oh I have to do the laundry” but... “oh, what does that actually mean right now in this moment?” “what is the step to take to do that”
Aly: Yeah, and I... And it's also occurring to me that perfectionism might get in our way here too.
Sam: It's an excellent point, Alyssa.
38:37 so... Yeah, I think also one thing that's come up for me and I think that this has maybe come up in our conversations before, maybe it's come up for you too, is when it comes to actually breaking down a project into sort of tasks and actionable steps... perfectionism can get in the way when we don't have a realistic idea of what it looks like to finish that project, or that task or whatever, and we think “it's not done, It's not finished until it's flawless.”
Aly: Yeah, and what does flawless mean and is flawless attainable? Probably not.
Sam: yeah, absolutely.
And so, yeah, getting hung up on this idea that... “oh it's gotta be flawless.” But, that what we think that is, is what signals flawless to us is a feeling like an emotion, what we think will signal it rather than like,”oh what does this actually look like?” 'Cause if we think, “oh what would that actually look like?” We might realize, yeah that's, that's literally not possible. So I'm just going to let that go...
Aly: Yeah, it's actually ringing a bell of a conversation that I had. I was like “how will you know when you're done?” It's just a feeling.. or “how will you know when you've gotten the right present?” It's a feeling that I have... Uh oh!
40:05 Sam: Totally... Yeah, another example of how we can feel challenged by transitioning is if we have slow processing speed. I know that I haven't been diagnosed or told by a professional that I have slow processing speed, but I have observed this enough in my life to realize that I have at least a really variable processing speed and that means that a lot of the time it's pretty slow, and that means that I actually require more time to make a full physical, mental and emotional transition than a lot of neurotypical people might.
40:05 Aly: So would it be fair to say that a processing speed is how fast we take in information and process that information? So that could just be reading or having a conversation with someone, or any way we take in information.?
Sam: Yeah, I think that that's a good way to put it, but also there are certain, I don't know, there's certain types of information that are important, that don't necessarily come from the examples you just gave. And I'm thinking about how long, just shockingly long it takes me to start my morning every day. And I say shockingly long because some people are able to get up and be ready for their workday in 20 minutes, especially if you're working from home these days. For me, basically, at least two hours from waking up and showering and eating breakfast, and getting started and transitioning into my day... I just need a lot more time to do that, than a lot of people... And I also like having a lot more time to do it, so maybe that's part of it, too, but also if I'm going to be referencing my checklist to remember to do certain things during my transitions, I might require additional time to read through my checklist, and then go back to it, make sure I've checked off all the things, then somebody who remembers to do things because their executive function is more like internal in the sense of a neurotypical person, does that make sense?
42:34 Aly: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense... Okay, so the next point that we're talking about is the belief we typically harbor that we need to feel like it to actually engage in an activity, and then if we disengage with something we are doing (that we feel like doing), that we won't be able to replicate that in the future. And I have a hard time with this one! I have a really hard ti-
Sam: With this statement or this belief? What do you mean?
Aly: This belief..I 100% believe that people need to feel like it to do it.
Sam: Oh, that’s what you mean.
43:12 Aly: Yeah. Yeah, and that's why I have a hard time like, “okay well if I don't feel like it, how do I do?” And basically, I think that what I've done in my life is anything that I don't feel like doing, I figured out a way to make myself feel like doing it.
43:31 Sam: So how do you make yourself feel doing something that you don't typically feel like doing?
Aly: Right. So like, sorry if any of my teachers are listening to this, but.... during class I like to do chores around the house, so I'll do my laundry during class, I'll clean the bathroom during class, i’ll vacuum during class, I'll do all the things that I don't necessarily enjoy doing on their own, but it's almost like fun during class because I have my headphones in and I'm moving while learning.
Sam: Can we just clarify that you take a teleclass rather than a class in person or class on video. Because people might be like “wait, she does what during class?!
44:22 Aly: That's a really important piece for people to hear. Yeah, thank you for clarifying that. But yeah, so I like to… But normally I'd be like, “oh my god, I have to vacuum... But it's just like this really cool opportunity for me to get stuff done while learning…
Sam: That makes a lot of sense because your brain is sort of engaged in something that is interesting and requires some focus, but you generally enjoy the topics. I would assume to some extent.
Aly: Yes, yes, yes.
Sam: And because your brain is engaged and you're excited and interested in the topic, then it's much easier, it feels so much easier to do the things that are boring that we otherwise put off.
Aly: Yeah, and it's not painful.
Sam: 'cause you're basically, your brain is engaged in something super interesting and the chore you're doing is kind of basic enough that it doesn't require your whole focus to do it.
Aly: Yeah, exactly, that's a really good point, yeah.
45:27 So I guess what's your view on that statement?
Sam: The belief about needing to feel like something in order to actually do it?
Aly: Yeah.
Sam: I mean, I see why you might have issues with that statement. And I think that there are things that as long as we're observant and aware of like, “oh what's the pattern of when I feel like doing that thing?” You have identified that like, “oh, I feel like doing it or and I'm inclined to do it, when my brain is engaged in this interesting practice at the same time, where it's interesting, a type of stimulation or whatever”. But that requires some. that requires awareness and the ability to identify those things when they're happening or when we are experiencing those emotions or feeling, like, doing some tedious chore... And, for me. Yeah, I guess that kind of... I think that you've found a way to get around that belief to some extent. It's not as though feeling like actually doing something is completely random for you, right, like you, you can intentionally set things up so that you do feel like doing it. So, I only listen to podcasts I really like when I'm doing something tedious at the same time. So I really, really, really hate folding my clothes. Okay, just it's the worst. I don't know, I haven't always been like that, but yeah, recently, that's been the case and that means that I only listen to my favorite podcast when I fold my clothes.
Aly: That's awesome…
Sam: I really love listening to that podcast and that means that I don't put off folding my clothes for ever and ever and ever
Aly: So I kind of take myself in two directions: “what's behind the resistance?” Is it that the task is too big and I don't know what's involved in it? Or is it that it's this thing that I really don't wanna do that I still have to do.. and then I figure out, “okay well what will make it easier to do it? Can I do it with a friend? Can I listen to my favorite podcast while doing it? Can I do it during class? Can I? There's a lot of options. Maybe I treat myself with... Yeah, I can't have chocolate but maybe I have some chips.
Sam: But I'm wondering do you give yourself chips before you do this thing or after you do this thing or during this thing?
Aly: During
Sam: Nice, yeah. Oh, I love that you said that because I think a lot of people just automatically think… Oh, I'll reward myself with chips afterwards. Yeah, I don't think that works at all.
Aly: It's super-painful throughout... I'm like double making it harder for myself.
Sam: Right. So you don't have to just grit your teeth and bear it, you can find something that will distract you from feeling that bad about it.
48:47 Aly: Yeah and it sounds very funny, but eating chips is… it sounds really weird... you're crunching the chips, it's like this whole experience and yeah…
Sam: It engages more, it engages multiple senses.
Aly: Yes! It does.
Sam: I’m wondering if we could talk a little bit about interruptions and how, what's up with that? How do we transition properly when we're interrupted?
Aly: Can I give it a little bit of context?
Sam: Please do.
49:26 Aly: Can picture yourself? You're hyper-focusing on a task, that it took you quite a bit of time to get into and you're in it and you're in the zone and you're doing the task and then somebody barges in and asks you a question.
Sam: How rude.
Aly: What happens to your mood? How rude…
Sam: Yeah, I guess I answered that question just before you asked it. Yeah, it plummets. Like ughhhh!
49:55 I am now pulled out of this space where I felt really good because I was able to focus and this thing that was kind of outside of my control, basically, yeah, just interrupted it and interrupted that sort of being in that flow for me and… Yeah, that's gonna really negatively, that tends to really negatively impact me and I know lots of other people with ADHD.
50:25 Aly: Yeah, and I think it's really important to know that and for those around you to know that, and to explain to them what that interruption does to you, and I don't think that... I don't think people really fully know what that interruption does.
And on the flip side, I don't know about you, but I'm terrible at interrupting other people.
50:47 Sam: Sorry, when you say you're terrible at it, does that mean that you aren't, you hesitate to interrupt? Or you interrupt…
Aly: Interrupt a lot.
Sam: Oh okay, gotcha.
Aly: Yeah, I'll have a thought. I'll be in a room not with the person and then I’ll yell and be like,”bla bla bla”... And then they're doing their thing. And then after I’ve yelled, I'm like, “oh shit, I did it, I interrupted them and I don't like when I do that, when people do that to me.
Sam: yeah, so I interrupt people more than I would like to interrupt them and that might sound strange but basically it's not intentional, it's not premeditated it's just like “oh this really interesting thought I’m having, but like I need to share it before I forget. But that isn't conscious... All of that is not conscious, it's not like I'm like, “oh I have this belief that I'm gonna forget the thing, so I better say it now before I forget.” It's like at the subconscious level, and it's kind of instantaneous. And I'm so excited about the thing that I wanna say, and I have such a strong belief that I'm gonna
forget it, that I actually, just then forget to even take a breath and think “I wonder what that person is doing right now and when would be an appropriate time to share this? and what can I do to remember what I wanna say?”
Aly: Yes, what can I do to remember what I'm going to say? And I think,
again, I'm like, big on creating rules, and sort of templates for things and I'm gonna explain what I'm trying to say... So a rule in this situation could be “okay, Sam, I might interrupt you. Or, I don't want to interrupt you, it's one of my tendencies. What can I do instead of interrupting you so that I can tell you the message that I wanna tell you.
Sam: What can you do? Well, you could do what I do... You could try what I do and that is making a note in your phone of what you wanna say, and you could send me a text and instead of saying the whole thing to me now, you could send me a text being like “I wanna talk to you about this thing at some point, when would be good for you?”
Aly: So like even if you're in a relationship with somebody, you can just text them rather than yelling across the...
Sam: You can! This technology these days…
Aly: Or write it in a note. Interesting.
Sam: Right? Yeah...The thing about sending them a text or I guess, yeah, a note if you know that they're gonna read it somewhere in particular and just say I want to tell you about this thing.
Aly: Right.
Sam: Let me know, some times that are appropriate, more suitable to talk about that.
53:54 Aly: I just pictured somebody coming home to a stack of notes on a table.
Sam: It is like, I don't know, “alligator, when can we talk about that?”
Aly: And then the birds goes, “alligator” and then we're like... I actually don't remember what “alligator” was.
Sam: I know..I have no idea, what was I trying to say there?
54:15 Aly: Yeah, yeah, so I guess in these notes you... It might be a good idea to get a little bit more specific.
Sam: I want to talk to you about my experience of trying alligator meat. When is good for you?
Aly: Have you tried it? I have a...
Sam: No, I haven’t... What?! Okay, this is our weird random fun fact for this episode. Alyssa has tried alligator meat and I don't know how or when that would have ever come up if I hadn't just blurted out the word alligator.
Aly: Yeah, so that's all of our points that we had to make for today…
Sam: And yeah, next time we wanna talk to you about how you can navigate through transitions in your day-to-day life in more detail than we mentioned today.
Aly: What...
Sam: I know, right?! How can we possibly get into more detail…
Aly: Alright, we will talk to you guys next time!
Sam: Thanks everyone, thanks Alyssa. Talk to you soon!
Aly: Byeee
Sam: Bye!
*Outro*: Aly: Thanks for joining us for this episode of The All Things ADHD Podcast. If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who you think could benefit - or you could leave us a review on Apple podcast, or whichever platform you have found us through. Your feedback will help others to find our content.
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